Sports Sedans: A Question

"SPAMBot - Horse Doctor" (spambot2002) 09/27/2018 at 18:36 • Filed to: None

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With all this talk of the Stinger lately, it got me thinking of our lack of non-luxury sport sedans. I would say the Legacy GT filled this gap for a while, and GM has made a few efforts. But other than that, it seems like this is dead zone. Every car that focuses on driving, seems to be a luxury offering, and every car that focuses on value is an unispired economy car (Cam ry and the entire mid-sized sedan segment). This got me thinking:

Are there any non-luxury cars that hold 4 adults and are fun to drive? Preferably RWD (AWD ok), over 300 HP, fun in the corners, and not a barge like the charger/300. Basically, a non-luxury brand 335 m-sport / S4 / C400.

Target price would be under 30k with low miles on used cars and no older than 2013 (to get some modernish tech)

The only cars I can think of are the Stinger (in a few years) and STi. The SS is still over 30 and the G8 seems too old. A good auto/DSG is ok. What am I obviously missing? And I’m not counting hot hatches.

A stinger for your time:

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 18:39

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A Big Coupe would even be a good alternative, in my eyes. But that basically leaves us with only the Challenger

CB > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 18:40

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The Charger. I think that's it.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 18:41

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Pretty sure this is the only option, and it’s AWD

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 18:46

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Ford Fusion Sport? 

KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 18:48

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It’s not luxury but definitely premium- G37 bro!

Used ones with less than 30K miles are easily $25K or less. Reliable 328Hp 269 Lb/ft RWD/AWD , manual trans is there if you can look for it. Seats 4 comfortably, tech from 2008 but it works no problem- You can use touch screen or buttons, heated seats, reasonable sized trunk (12 cu ft)

If this is small, try  M37x

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t 09/27/2018 at 18:49

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I thought about this and the SHO, but I’m not totally convinced they are fun to drive. I haven’t driven either, but I would assume, based on nothing, that they are not engaging or that they lack feel. Kind of like the all the meh reviews of the genesis v8.

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > CB 09/27/2018 at 18:50

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I think the charger is too big and not designed from the ground to be a fun car in the corners.

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 09/27/2018 at 18:51

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We need a 4 door mustang haha

WilliamsSW > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 18:53

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Non luxury cars are almost all FWD - that’s probably the biggest hangup.

The SS can be had under $30k - look for a 2014 with some miles on it.

Jetta GLI maybe? 

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time 09/27/2018 at 18:53

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I always forget this is a thing haha. I Would still lump this into luxury though, if only from a perception point. Same with Acura.

CompactLuxuryFan > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 18:54

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Regal GS and Passat CC 3.6 4motion

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 18:54

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Here ya go

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > WilliamsSW 09/27/2018 at 18:57

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Yeah, I think that is the main issue. No mainstream brands (other than FCA), really has anything designed from the ground up as a RWD based platform.

I think all those are autos, right? I don’t think that car has a good auto, and it would be blasphemy to get that transmission anyways lol.

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 09/27/2018 at 18:57

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What could have been haha

KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 19:00

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You’re right. It is a faster fusion not a sports sedan in a fusion body.

https://jalopnik.com/the-325-horsepower-2017-ford-fusion-sport-is-not-the-au-1785980191

Kim Jong - Healthy > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 19:02

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my vote goes for the stage 2 accord  Kristen brought to our attention

KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 19:02

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Chevy SS is your best bet. Autos are much cheaper and should fall within $30K soon. And I have driven both the SS and a Stinger GT but I am partial to that 6.2 V8.

I love a good sleeper and it is on my next car list.

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 19:05

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The SHO is a big, soft boat that’s blazingly fast in a straight line and has surprising cornering traction limits without actually being “sporty” . The Fusion Sport is basically just a F usion with a buttload of power and better brakes, which is to say its a bit more fun in the corners than the average mid-sizer, and goes and stops very well. Is it a “sport” sedan? Not compared to a BMW, but compared to a Camry.... Maybe. 

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > CompactLuxuryFan 09/27/2018 at 19:09

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These are both FWD based cars, right? Not saying that discounts them, but it definitely changes my opinion to sports adjacent sedan haha. In my mind, it needs to be designed from the ground up with “dynamicism” ( TM) . A lot of those cars really show their economy car roots when pushed past 7/10.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 19:10

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Since you mention the Legacy GT, isnt the STi and Evo also in this category as well? And really you could argue that the “hot hatch” segment blurs the lines here and that is where you find most of the options. Depending on where your timeline is, you could also include stuff like the Mazdaspeed6, Honda Civic Si, and then VW options like the GLI. 

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time 09/27/2018 at 19:11

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The SS with an auto seems so wrong though haha. Plus I’m not convinced GM has made a good auto yet

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t 09/27/2018 at 19:13

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That makes sense. I mentioned to someone else that these tarted up economy cars really show their roots when pushed. I’m still glad versions like this exist, though.

WilliamsSW > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 19:14

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I really haven’t looked at Jettas in years. I always thought the GLI was basically a GTI with a trunk so I thought it was the same transmission options? IDK.

The beauty of the SS to me is that it wasn’t really a luxury car. Hated to see it go. 

Spanfeller is a twat > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 19:15

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I’d guess the Ford Fusion Sport with the proper mods is the way to go. I wouldn’t characterize the Stinger as fun to drive. 

KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 19:17

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It’s decent not great. No ZF8 speed. But the car has a ton of torque so you really don’t need to be shifting that often.

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > Kim Jong - Healthy 09/27/2018 at 19:18

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I do not consider a FWD car a sports sedan. The only reason to design a front wheel drive car is for economy/price/ease of manufacturing/etc.

Realistically, I would say it needs to be RWD only but I wanted to include the S4. But the Audi, to me, seems like it was designed with driving in mind. Not commuting.

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time 09/27/2018 at 19:19

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That’s what I was assuming (or maybe I read that artic le in the past lol)

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time 09/27/2018 at 19:22

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I just hate the RPM hunt, lazy shifts, unpredictability, of a standard torque converter slushbox. The ZF8 does a good job for an auto but the torque converter locks up when actually driving, right?

Most of the autos I drive are rentals so they might not be all bad haha

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > Spanfeller is a twat 09/27/2018 at 19:23

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Oh really? All the reviews makes it seem like its the best non 3 series, 3 series.

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > WilliamsSW 09/27/2018 at 19:24

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Same. I wish they would have offered it in a base model without all the premium features but still the option for mag ride and a LSD.

Chariotoflove > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 19:28

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I think the key problem is in the RWD stipulation. As long as you stick with that, there will be very few that fit the bill. It opens up if you start to allow a FWD car to be called a sports sedan if it fits the other criteria of fun to drive (what’s this heresy? burn him!). The Mazda 6 comes to mind. And although it’s not a “luxury” brand, the signature series makes a good run at the luxury feel. The Accord sport is also supposed to be really fun. The Regal GS, too. But if you stick with RWD, I got nothin’ .

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 09/27/2018 at 19:29

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The MS6 is probably the closest but I think a little too old. Chassis design has come a long way in the past generation or two of cars. I would exclude the GLI and Si because front wheel drive. But even if I didn’t, I still look at them (and even the MS6) as economy cars with sporting parts thrown on. They lack that born for fun driving type of spirit.

The AWD hot hatches definitely help bridge the gap, but, I would really rather have my sporty car have the engine mounted longitudinally. (Fun fact, the B5? VR6 4 motion Passat had it’s engine in the correct way haha)

CompactLuxuryFan > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 19:32

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Yeah. Subaru is pretty much the only mainstream brand that puts out longitudinal models, and most of them are powered by boat anchors bolted to CVTs . The Passat was actually longitudinal (and shared a platform with the A4!) for a while, but long before the CC days. The upcoming Ford Explorer/ Lincoln Aviator platform will actually be longitudinal for some reason and could support an awesome sport sedan but don’t hold your breath.

Spanfeller is a twat > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 19:33

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It’s not fun like a Miata or like a GT350 or something preposterously over-engineered to be a road car. I think it’s better than the 440i and the S4, but just by a tiny margin.

It’s a heavy grand tourer with a bitchin’ engine: that’s all it is. Driving it on the highway you realize this, It just likes eating up the miles. Forget about the limited slip diff or the adaptive dampers or the 501nm of torque. The steering is dead, it likes understeer, and it rolls excessively.

I think Kia has room to improve this car, particularly when it comes to the gearbox tuning, steering feel, and the engine output. A stiffer stinger with 450hp would be a credible threat to something like a m550i when it comes to performance.

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > Chariotoflove 09/27/2018 at 19:35

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I am allowing AWD in my personal definition, mostly because of the Audi. I won’t hate on any car that is fun to drive, but the dynamics are different on a car that was converted into a sporty sedan versus a car that was designed that way in the first place. Specs and track times may say it doesn’t matter, but the experience when you are pushing a car certainly does.

I’m guessing there is a very small number of people that want a new 335 that isn’t a BMW. And I will also guess, building this type of car is expensive, so the only way to make it profitable is to throw some leather and tech inside it and sell it as premium.

Chariotoflove > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 19:37

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I believe what you say, although I have never actually owned what you would call a sport sedan.

Wait, I lied!  I bought new and drove for 13 years an RX-8.  It has 4 doors (a fact I made sure the insurance company had on record), therefore sedan!

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > CompactLuxuryFan 09/27/2018 at 19:41

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I remember about the Passat! My buddy had one. That car was actually pretty badass until it wasn’t. It’s a shame Subaru is putting out anemic engines bolted to CVT’s. They used to fill this segment before they realized they could make cash hand over fist by going generic.

Ford and Chevy really need to make a sedan (or wagon!) version of the mustang/camaro, or at the very least, give them real back seats.

I am very excited for the longitudinal SUVs. Everything is to crossovery right now and maybe this is the step in the right direction. Big, trucky, SUVs still sell fantastic so clearly there is a market.

bhtooefr > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 19:42

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B5 was V6, not VR6.

Also, most Subarus have a longitudinal engine as well (exact same layout as Audi’s, which the B5 Passat used).

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > Spanfeller is a twat 09/27/2018 at 19:43

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That’s a bummer to hear. my main gripe about the BMW is that it is completely numb. Your description sounds a lot like a smaller, not as powerful charger. I’ll drive one at some point and see though.

ranwhenparked > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 19:44

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I really think the Charger and 300 fit the bill, they’re in the full size class, but they’re hardly big cars in the scheme of things - the 300 is only like 4 inches longer than a 5-Series. 

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > bhtooefr 09/27/2018 at 19:49

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Oh really, I did not realize that! I assumed VW didn’t use a different 6 cylinder. That was when they were trying to be the best, and not the biggest so I guess it makes sense.

The issue with modern day Subaru, sans the WRX/STi, they have weak engines coupled to CVTs. I really really liked the old Legacy GT. But they have come a long way from there lol

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > Chariotoflove 09/27/2018 at 19:51

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I haven’t either, but have driven a few.

I drove an RX8 at carmax once and really liked it. The sales guy told me a story of a guy who was instructed by his wife, that he could buy any car he wanted, as long as it had 4 doors. He brought the RX8 home but was back returning it the next day hahaha (I hope that actually happened)

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > ranwhenparked 09/27/2018 at 19:53

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I’ve never really driven either. The performance versions of the challenger are actually kind of fun in corners. I always assume the charger/300 drive lazily but I have no first hand knowledge. The base model challengers sure do though.

bhtooefr > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 19:54

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The VR6 was designed to fit six cylinders into a 4-cylinder transverse engine bay, so... yeah, a V6 will fit better into a longitudinal bay anyway.

(Although, the VR 5 , which is exactly what it sounds like it is (a VR6 with five cylinders instead of six) , was found in the B5 in Europe. And if you want to go weirder, the W8 is two VR4s joined at the crank, and was also found in the B5 Passat. )

Chariotoflove > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 19:56

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No joke, those suicide doors turn the car into a genuinely useful daily.  I did all kinds of useful family stuff in that car, including trips to Sam’s club with a child in the car seat.

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > bhtooefr 09/27/2018 at 19:58

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The W8 Passat was prob the high point of VW. I assume this was a product of the reign of fear installed by a growing senile Ferdinand Piëch. No other CEO would come up with, and then implement, bat shit crazy (awesome) plans like he could.

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > Chariotoflove 09/27/2018 at 20:00

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That’s actually good to hear. I assumed they were a huge afterthought and not useful. Maybe I should get an RX-8 with a blown engine next *thinking emoji*

PS9 > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 20:06

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$30k is not a reasonable price for a 5.0 GT or SS-level RWD sports sedan anymore. The reason you only see luxury brands make them is because the $40k+ price tag demands a luxury badge.

Only a few cars with rubbish badging can get away with premium pricing. The american trucks and coupes can. The Corvette can. The Land Cruiser can. We’ll see if the stinger can as well. Chevy tried with the SS and got owned. The badge to a lot of buyers out there past the $40k mark means much more to them than anything else the car could provide them, and Mercedes proves it everytime someone drops $60k for the overall subpar CLA AMG. 

404 - User No Longer Available > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 20:23

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Not quite a sedan (it’s a liftback) , but Regal GS? V6 AWD.

dogisbadob > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 20:27

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The Accord 2.0T has the CTR engine, sporty FWD midsize sedan, and there is also the Mazda 6.

Honda also makes a Civic Si sedan. They have offered it with 4 doors for about 10 years. OK,maybe the new one isn’t as fun as the 8th gen, and there’s no more two-tier dash, but the Civic Si should still work for you.

But for non-luxury RWD, the stupid smart car and iMiev might be your only choices. Both are rear-engine as well.

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 20:34

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There’s just simply no market for it. And by market I mean people who would actually put their money where their mouth is instead of critiquing on the internet with no firsthand experience of the car.

The concept of a sports sedan is for those who can afford a sports car but need to be able to do practical things with it. A general sedan is for people who just need a car to go places. You don’t have much of a group of people between that. The two categories also conflict with each other. If you want an efficient car it won’t be fun. If you want it to be fun you won’t come close to the advertised efficiency. Then there’s comfort and sportiness. If it’s going to be an affordable car they have to cut costs somewhere. It’ll be one of the two depending on their target market. You can’t have both.

nj959 > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 20:38

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I wouldn’t say no to a 5.7 Charger with a set of coilovers.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 20:46

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I dont think a car being FWD automatically ruins its sporting intentions. It matters what else is going on with the car to really determine that. The GLI is definitely a fun car and that sort of premium without being luxury that VW likes to do. I enjoyed the one my friend has and it definitely had the sporting intentions going for it and didnt feel like an econobox. I get what you are saying about “built from the ground up” with sporting intentions rather than tacked on crap. I definitely can find base model impreza crap about my STi to complain about if I had standards. But seeing as I really loved the Neon that owned for a short time, I think I just enjoy bullshit car interiors/build quality lol.

PatBateman > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 20:53

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‘Member when everyone laughed at the Chevy SS and said that it was a stupid car because reasons?

I ’member.

wafflesnfalafel > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 09/27/2018 at 20:58

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yep, new turbo 6, WRX to some degree, Accord 2.0 turbo, Civic Si, VW GLI, Camry v6, Legacy 3.6 to some degree, turbo Ford Fusion, Dodge Chargers, Turbo Optima.  Quite a few still.  

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 21:26

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I had a Legacy 2.5GT Limited 5-speed.

Mazdaspeed 6 was offered at the same time... not anymore.

A4 was one I cross-shopped, but didn’t fit rear passengers with tall front passengers. A3 basically eclipsed A4.

I wished there was a combination of the Mazda 6 5-door and Legacy GT.

Now there is, now that A5 Sportback is offered in the US.

Kia Stinger, Buick Regal, Cadillac ATS, Chrysler 300S, Charger RT, Camry V6 is reportedly fun, but FWD... Lexus IS would be the RWD variant. Acura is probably willing to beg you to buy a TLX V6 AWD.

Lincoln might just beg you to buy a 400hp twin-turbo V6 MKX with a retractable glass roof, too, based on their sales lately...

The up-side to declining sedan sales... incentives and hold-over 2018 models on closeout...

and if you really do want rear passengers bigger than children, and more frequently than rarely ... mid-size might end up being smaller than you think, and bigger sedans like CT6, Continental, 300S, A6, and such... may be worth the extra rear legroom and headroom, if you can find a good deal on slow-sellers that dealers want to rid themselves of. I know that is going Luxury, when you said not... but luxury cars packing 400 horses for less than $ 40K in some cases, aren’t exactly dog slow... and manual gearboxes on sedans in general  are sadly pretty much past sunset, and well into twilight.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 21:41

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A family member has a 2013 300 base V6 with the 8-speed gearbox, it actually isn’t bad and kind of likes to be thrashed a little bit , not crazy, or anything, though. I t isn’t highly optioned, either, so not as heavy as a fully-loaded 300S.

Models earlier that that, with the 5-speed automatic, or with the older pre-Pentastar V6 are reportedly much more sluggish. Pentastar V6 is better, and the 8-speed gearbox (despite the shifter that nobody seems to like, but I have no problem with) is better on both V6 and V8 cars.

But a Hemi V8 300S would probably be quite good, with loads of torque, and maybe even 4-seasons manageable with AWD... but it would be heavier than some.

Wish they still made the SRT with the 392/6.2L engine in the 300. The sport appearance package (blacked out grille and headlights, smoke-chrome wheels, less chrome trim on the bodywork, and the LED-outline tail lights always looked both classy and action-ready to me.

Textured Soy Protein > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 22:22

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I had an MS6. It’s pretty good and also a pile of crap.

Even if the platform isn’t very new, it’s plenty capable. Fwd biased awd, but it’s pretty good about sending power to the rear wheels proactively. The rear diff is a torsen. The stock suspension is raised vs. the regular 6 and has positive camber in the front but that can be fixed with lowering and camber adjusters, which I did.

The interior is rattly as fuck. The seats are hard. The turbo likes to burn oil, the fuel system likes to supply not quite enough fuel at high rpm. It’ll knock in a surprising fashion for a modern car even on 93. It I quite literally a  rust bucket.

Fun, but not quality.

glemon > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 22:43

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The RX8 was a brilliant design, you really could put a full size adult or two in back without going through too many gyrations. Driving Dynamics are wonderful, I have no complaints about the power. The only reason I am not driving one today is half the ads I looked at for them were either dead motor  or on the 2nd motor.  My nephew had on that had the no compression failure.  I chickened out.

WilliamsSW > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/27/2018 at 23:42

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That would have been sweet, but I think GM wanted them loaded to minimize losses, personally. I’m convinced that GM lost money on those and had zero desire to sell any more than required by their deal with the Australian government. 

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > WilliamsSW 09/28/2018 at 11:17

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That is my best guess, too

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > glemon 09/28/2018 at 11:18

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I drove one (at carmax) back to back with a first gen cayman. I liked the RX-8 better haha

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > Textured Soy Protein 09/28/2018 at 11:20

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I don’t know what it was about Mazdas rusting out. Seems like an across the board thing. The rest of the car sounds like the interior of a similar vintage M azda 3 haha

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 09/28/2018 at 11:25

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I really liked the SRT (never driven one though). I’ve driven the old v6 and auto and it is so meh. Even the newer v6 plus 8 speed (rental) was pretty meh. No feedback and lots of roll. I’m sure the suspension is worked out on the higher model cars but I’m not sure about the feel.

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 09/28/2018 at 11:29

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Oooh, I forgot about the face lifted Lincoln with the 3.0 TT. I’ll have to drive one of those. It finally looks pretty good. Still a FWD chassis, but options are limited haha. And Lincoln is much less inspirational than even Acura, in my opinion, so I might count it. I’m not really looking for a new car right now, but it’s a bummer no mainstream brand (other than dodge) makes a proper sedan. Even then, I’m not sure I count dodge because they are so big. I like smaller cars haha. We need a Mustang/Camaro sedan

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > PatBateman 09/28/2018 at 11:31

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Pepperidge Farm remembers.

I remember it getting glowing reviews, though. And I remember the 1 Series M getting meh reviews. It’s amazing what a little bit of time does lol

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 09/28/2018 at 11:36

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Haha makes sense. VW really does know how to make FWD cars fun and a lot more premium than other brands. I don’t really care about a shit interior, as long as it doesn’t look like they actively tried to make it look bad (cough non premium mustang). At the end of the day though, I would rather had RWD because you never know when you will be craving donuts lol.

I think the STi does a better job hiding it’s roots. Maybe because Subaru knew the final form would be the STi so they planned for it from the start. A lot of the other “AWD” cars seem half baked. I haven’t driven any of them, that’s just my perception haha

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > nj959 09/28/2018 at 11:36

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Or a scat pack haha

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > 404 - User No Longer Available 09/28/2018 at 11:41

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Lift-back is even better haha. I think cars like that are sport adjacent, though. At least GM is trying. It might not be all the way there, but it is a start. W hen I’m ready to look, I’ll have to check one out.

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 09/28/2018 at 11:41

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Yeah, that’s basically what I assumed. The people who actually care about driving usually care about a nice car too. So there is very little overlap

instead of critiquing on the internet with no firsthand experience of the car

Literally me LOL

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > dogisbadob 09/28/2018 at 11:43

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I always forget the smart car is rear engine haha

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > PS9 09/28/2018 at 11:45

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Yeah, 30k isn’t much anymore. Dodge does a good job with pricing. Even if you want a V8 it’s mid 30's. I guess you can keep your price low when you are selling a 20 year old car lmao

glemon > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/28/2018 at 12:29

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In answer to your original question, though I don’t think the platform would lend itself well to a full blown four door, I think Mazda should take the Miata bits and turn it into a BMW 2002 sized coupe, with similar proportions to allow a kids or full up 4 adults in the car for short trips. Think of all the people who want the driving dy namics of a Miata, bu t have kids, or simply could justify the purchase to the SO easier, or are getting older and would prefer their fun to come in a little more upright package. Keep it light, simple, dependable ( Miatas rate high cause simple means less to go wrong) , easy on gas and cheap. Or if you prefer call it a modern Datsun 510 except it's a Mazda GLC .

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > glemon 09/28/2018 at 12:42

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We need that ILx concept but I would be down with a Miata based, non-luxury 2 series haha

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 10/01/2018 at 01:08

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Haha it’s okay, we all critique at on e poi nt or another. I hated the gran coupes and then one day I saw a 6-series GC and my interest was aroused. Then I laid eyes on a 4-series GC and it was a done deal.

Same with the Panamera. I LOVE how they look now. I want a Panamera next.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 10/04/2018 at 13:16

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So what you’re asking for is a 99 Integra GSR?

I guess a GLI is the closest thing on sale... I take that back there currently is no GLI trim available for the Jetta. Just an “ R line” which gets you bigger wheels, an optional orange color and that’ s about it. it still has the 1.4t and an automatic with no option of a manual.

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 10/04/2018 at 13:40

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They need a Golf R version of the Jetta (I think that’s just a S3 though haha)